Season 2, Episode 5: Self Care for Freelancers (with guest host Christina Lister)

It's the Season 2 finale!!

Lucy & Laura are joined by the wonderful Christina Lister, who in this episode helped us delve into the often overlooked, but certainly vital topic of self care for freelancers...

Whether its maintaining balance, passion, and inspiration or just finding time to combine submitting invoices and paying bills the art of self care for freelancers is an imperative one.
 
A massive thank you to our wonderful guest Christina, you can find her at….

https://www.christinalister.co.uk/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christinalister/

As for us you can find us on:

X: @HistBizAGuide
Instagram: @historybusinessaguide

For Laura:

X:  @laurafitzach
IG:  @seekthehistoric
Tik Tok: @seekthehistoric
Threads: @seekthehistoric

For Lucy:

X: @lucyjanesantos_
IG: @lucyjanesantos_   
YouTube: @lucyjanesantos_
Substack: https://lucyjanesantos.substack.com/

Thank you so much for following along with History Business, until next time!

Transcript

00:00:16 Lucy Jane Santos

Whether it's maintaining balance, passion and inspiration, or just finding time to combine submitting invoices and paying bills, the art of self-care for freelancers is a vital one. Welcome to History Business, a guide to being a historian for hire, a new podcast taking an honest look at building a freelance portfolio career in the field of history. 

I suppose we should introduce ourselves first to my name is Lucy Jane Santos, and I'm a historical consultant, researcher, writer and presenter specialised in examining the historic crossroads of health, leisure and beauty with science and technology.

And this week I have got a chapter I've been working on for an edited collection has been signed off, so that's a relief that's been done. And I'm prepping for a talk on the history of coin operated machines, because why not? And I'm trying to schedule some time to write a piece for my new sub stack. So essentially I'm trying to find a balance between stuff that I know that's gonna bring me in some money and other things that are a little bit more speculative.

00:01:14 Laura Fitzachary

And I'm Laura. I'm a historian and historical consultant, writer, researcher and presenter specialising in mediaeval art and museum studies, and then later 18th century social history, in particular the history of beauty and fashion in Ireland and beyond. This week was a roller coaster. I went on an incredible press trip to Paris with Chanel.

And then came home, got sick and ended up in the hospital and lost a few days of work. So I've been scrambling actually all day to try and catch up on what I've missed. So I couldn't think of a more perfect time to talk about self-care on tips on what to do when it all goes very well. And of course indeed when it all goes terribly wrong. 

In this week's episode of History Business, we will be focusing on self-care and are joined by the fantastic Christina Lister. Christina is a marketing and audience development consultant specialising in working with museums, heritage sites and cultural venues. With 21 years of in-house agency and consultancy experience. She's also an author with her new publication, marketing strategy for museums. But she has also worked for 11 years as a freelance consultant with a wide range of organisations and is the co-founder and has also co run museum freelance, for six years, building a network of over 2000 freelancers who work with museums, heritage sites, libraries, archives and galleries. It has since led to three conferences and we could not think of a more perfect person to join us for this episode. Welcome to the show, Christina.

00:02:44 Christina Lister

Oh, thanks very much for having me.

00:02:47 Laura Fitzachary

https://www.christinalister.co.uk/

LinkediN: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christinalister/

And of course we will list all of that on our description and on our social media posts too.

00:03:01 Lucy Jane Santos

So freelancing can be unpredictable and demanding. How do you prioritise self-care to make your physical and mental well-being whilst managing your workload as a freelancer? Big question I think, isn't it? We'll kick off with the biggest of all questions.

00:03:13 Christina Lister

Big opening question! Yeah, thank you. I'm so excited that you're doing a whole episode on self-care. Actually, I and I don't think that would’ve happened when I started freelancing for 10-11 years ago. I feel like the conversations come a really long way. During that time, a lot more people are aware of it and talking about it. I suppose different people's perception and definition of self-care is going to look different. You know, depending on what their personal circumstances are and that sort of thing. And I was looking at some definitions online.

I suppose, broadly speaking, it seemed to be about the practise of taking action to kind of preserve, maintain or improve your own health and well-being, and some definitions have happiness in there as well, and some linked to emphasised during times of stress.

I think it's really hard to prioritise it, but I think you can hope to elevate it so that self-care at least sits alongside and has as an important role in your week as you know, paid client work and all the other things you're juggling. And I think for me that the main thing and it's taken years to get here, you know, periods of burnout and the lot that just that, the realisation that if you don't look after your health and well-being, you're gonna get run down, you're gonna get ill and you're just not gonna perform and do the best work you can. So even if self-care is something that perhaps naturally doesn't come to you, you know, some people really thrive on deadlines, they're workaholics and love, especially a lot of freelancers, a lot of historians will love the work they're doing. It's really hard to stop and and incorporate that self-care, but I think it's just overall you know you can't perform in the long term and at your best if you're really running on empty, I'd say.

00:04:52 Lucy Jane Santos

That was such a great answer and you know, we were really delighted to talk to you and do an episode on self-care. I don't know if it's because we knew that we were going to do this episode all because it we just know it's so important. It's something me and Laura talk about ourselves.

But many of these conversations we've had with freelancers -we've we've touched on self-care, we've touched on you know how to sustain yourselves and it is really, really important. And again, I'm so delighted to have you here because obviously you're the expert in this. I mean, as much as anyone can be an expert on it on, you know, and give advice on it. So it's really wonderful and thank you for that answer as well.

00:05:29 Laura Fitzachary

And of course, then just to follow on from that, can you share some specific self-care routines or practises that have been especially helpful in managing the stress and uncertainty that can come with freelancing if there's anything positively specific to the field of history, but any specific routines or practise?

00:05:47 Christina Lister

I think the great thing about self-care is it, it can be really tiny things that make a difference and it doesn't have to cost anything. So for me it's some discipline around screen breaks because like honestly 99.9% of my work is in front of the screen, which might not be the case for everybody. But you know, even like my optician was saying this year, you know?

Every every 20 minutes. Apparently you're meant to take. I think it's every 20 minutes. You're meant to look away from your screen for 20 seconds at a distance of 20 metres or something like that. 20/20/20, I have not managed to do that, but certainly even just to go and make a cup of coffee. You know, that is a break from the screen.

Where possible, you know, fresh air and a bit of a walk around the block. That again, I think you can think, you know, I've got all these deadlines. I've got so much to do. I just have to keep sitting here and getting the words out and doing the work. But actually, sometimes if you take that break, that's when you come up with that light bulb moment that aha, you see things in the different perspective, you know, just taking that step back. So it can be as simple as a sort of a short little walk around the block, I think also be just actually being very disciplined like being on top of your workload, being organised, whatever that work, whatever works for you, you know, in terms of reminders, calendars.

Just because otherwise I think that in itself can be a cause of stress. If you're sort of chasing your tail, you don't know what's coming up. If you're going to have clients starting to chase you. So just being on top of things in that way. And then I suppose, something which I was really, really rubbish out when I started out because I was so worried that I'd miss opportunities. But, you know, now I'm a lot better at taking emails off my phone, not every holiday. But you know some really cool holidays or sort of time off to really get that time off putting out of office on and weekends as well actually. And it can be tiny things like if I'm doing the school run and I'm waiting, say for my daughter to come out, you know, there's a temptation always sort of like, ohh. Just check my work emails and that is so dangerous because rather than thinking ohh that's a really efficient way of running my business. I've I'm killing 10 minutes. I'll just catch up on my emails and said you read you might read something and immediately your mind starts going oh.

And you get the stress because you have, you're not in front of your computer, you haven't got pen and paper, and you're then starting to really blur all these lines of kind of work and home life, so I'm trying not to do that well as well and I think lastly, one of the things is just having people around who gets it. So having other freelancers perhaps that I can WhatsApp and go urggh. Have you seen this or what would you do about this or what I right do you think I was right or wrong to do that but at the same time as it's nice to have someone who gets it that you can talk to.

I think it's also really nice to have people who are actually not in that field of work at all, maybe who are not freelancers or not historians so that you can actually totally have a break off all work related things. You're not tempted to when you see them and talk shop.

00:08:32 Laura Fitzachary

Really and thank you so much. The out of office there particularly I stuck in my mind because I never even thought of putting it out of office for myself. I've always done it for the jobs I've worked in, but now I'm like, that's exactly what I'm going to do over Christmas, you know, set my little out of office on and then not look at my emails until I know at - well after New Years anyway.

00:08:48 Christina Lister

Yeah. Like when we start out ten years ago, I really thought ohh if I putting out what's on, I'll miss some amazing opportunity. It's interesting though, cause on the one hand I've got other freelance colleagues who I almost feel it. Yeah, it's a totally personal decision, but some will. Every week I'll get an hour office from them and I always feel like, well, actually you don't have to justify every single day.

You know you don't have to say -you're at a conference today and tomorrow you're out on site with the client. You know, I think there's also an element of that where I think I don't have to justify and be accountable for every hour because no one should expect. Currently, I'm not doing any kind of work where I am as part of the contract on call 24/7. So I guess there's also that balance of thinking. Yeah. But, you know, people will do what works for them, I think.

00:09:31 Laura Fitzachary

I always open sometimes, but I just or sorry I was. And I'm like, why am I apologising for doing another piece of work. So thank you for that.

00:09:39 Lucy Jane Santos

Yeah. And it's a very good point, especially when you're working with multiple clients and multiple expectations that you may not have actually had a conversation with them about what they expect quickly and they expect you to respond. I've just started working with one client and I, I don't mind this. I'll just say that I don't mind it. It's suiting the way that I work, but they will give me 24 hour turn around on a on a project. It's maybe like an hour 2 hours work. It's not huge and it's not that hard, but I'm always getting that Friday. You know, I get a message Friday. Can you have this done by Monday? I don't mind it. It's works. It works well for me, but you know, I can see for other people that would cause a lot of stress. I'm often sitting at my computer. I can fit that in and I guess the other issue that I'm thinking about directly for my work is working on multiple time zones. I do a lot of work in the US, so I'll get emails 5-7 hours after I finish work about something that they want me to do.

And again it it's it can be difficult to maintain that. No, I I work on British time. I'm asleep now and there's always that fear that you've missed something in the middle of the night. And again, it's just setting up those boundaries and having those conversations. And those expectations isn't it.

00:10:54 Christina Lister

Absolutely, but then obviously if you're, you know, that sounds really exciting to, you know, work with clients in the States. I think one of the things I've come to realise is that freelancing isn't this amazing utopia that will just, you know, it's it's work at the end of the day, so there might be so many advantages to it, and you know freedom, flexibility etcetera, etcetera. But ultimately it is work. So I've kind of become quite pragmatic and I can't expect everything I can't earn the best ever salary, but still sort of work generally part time and be present with my kids and do school runs and also be really fit.

You know, somewhere along the line, you know, there are compromises as well. You have to accept.

00:11:34 Lucy Jane Santos

Compromise is a really important word, and again, something that keeps coming up in these conversations that we're having, isn't it.

And so we're touching on this. I mean, we're already talking around this and I'm sure we'll go back and forth into these conversations. So as freelancers, we do often have to manage our schedules and our work environments. So what strategies do you use to create a productive and balanced workspace whilst avoiding burnout.

00:11:59 Christina Lister

Yeah, it's compromised to me because I have two children, and I think in my in my ideal work scenario, I'm really productive in the morning and I would just, I'd love to come down the stairs, make some coffee and literally just get to work, that they're my best hours of the day.

And sometimes I will actually get up, especially when I was working on the book, I would do that and get two or three hours in before the school run would start. But otherwise, that's one of my areas of compromise. I'm not fully in control of the hours I do in kind of my day last week, I was, I was unwell, and then one of my children was unwell as well, home from school. So that's yeah, the juggle.

I'm really fortunate in that I have a separate office room at home. And that's, you know, huge privilege. But that really makes a difference because it's then a space that I can actually close the door to you if I want to, at the end of the day, I think I've tested loads of, like, sort of time management and productivity efficiency strategies over the years. I don't know if you've come across to eat the frog I quite like that one. It's such a simple idea. But you know, if you're prone to procrastinating.

Or this idea that you know if you just have loads to do you just start ticking off the kind of easy things on your list just because it makes you feel better because you can start crossing things off. But actually you're often crossing off the not so urgent or not so important stuff. And sometimes you just have to really bite the bullet. Then this idea of eating the frog is to start your day or your week with like the hardest and most important task, and one you know, if you start to get that out of the way, then the rest of the day will be a lot more efficient. I think of the similarly there's, I don't know if you've come across the Urgent Important Matrix you have like say the four quadrants and you plot things into whether they are urgent and important, in which case obviously do them now or urgent, but not important. So important but not urgent, so important, not urgent. Quite. Quite a good, good example, because there can be things that are important because they're not urgent. You never seem to get around to them. So the idea there is that you schedule time for that in a you know in advance, because otherwise before you know, they will become urgent and then you have to be really realistic with yourself and think, well, what's in this, neither urgent nor important quadrant. Do you actually need to do them at all?

And you certainly shouldn't be starting your week with them. Some of those sorts of tips work quite well. I know some people who like the Pomodoro technique.

Well, you know, there are similar versions where you work very efficiently without any, you know, distractions. You put your phone in another room or on silent. You close all tabs, close your emails and you try to really, really focus for for example 50 or 55 minutes. And then you have 5 or 10 minutes off or whether it's 20 minutes and then you have 5 minutes off. Whatever works for you, that sort of thing can be quite fun to try as well.

Different things I think right for different people. Having some accountability as well, sometimes on the longer term projects, I think that can be hard if you don't have those deadlines and milestones. So you might have to set your own kind of accountability up as well within those.

How about? I mean, how about you two, what do you find work?

00:14:53 Lucy Jane Santos

I feel I live in a chaos. I do like the Pomodoro technique, and when you're talking about the way of stopping, staring at your screen as well, I did start thinking about, you know, setting that 20 minutes. So it's 20 minutes, isn't it? And then a 5 minute break and just actually having that break, that isn't just picking up your phone and looking at Twitter or whatever. So yeah, I'd like that idea. I'm definitely fairly controlled chaos person who is really struggles with all of this. So, but I bet Laura is well on top of everything. She strikes me as someone who is.

00:15:28 Laura Fitzachary 

I didn't know that that was called eat the frog until you describe what it was, but that is kind of what I do. Like, I'll set out for my week what I have to do and then I'll get the really part that I'm dreading the most over and done with.

00:15:41 Christina Lister

Hats off, if you do that cause it is really hard to do, but I think when you do that, uh, it can be so liberating when you cause otherwise. I think it's just this false economy, isn't it?

That you keep putting something off and then it's always there in the back of your mind and you're getting more and more stressed and overwhelmed, but there's still something that stops you from just cracking on with it. I mean, I've I've had some, just some lovely ideas from different people over the years in terms of this. I I just think you have to make it work for you and your circumstances and your personality or your way of working. A colleague of mine, my Marge Ainsley, and I, we used to formulate we'd run prior to the pandemic when it was also up and running. Training courses on basically how to set up and.

By not just, well, survive and thrive as a freelancer in the sector, and we heard all sorts of ideas there from people. So there was someone who had a a work pair of slippers and a home pair of slippers, and that was their way of because they worked from home and at the end of their working day they would get into, like, physically get into a different pair of slippers as a way of kind of marking because they don't have a commute.

That distinction, and I really love that idea. And I mean, I know there are other people as well who work from home who will maybe go for a walk around the block in the morning as they're so cool, commute, and then they'll do the same at the end of the day because I think one of the things that can be really hard is this. You don't have time to decompress between kind of work and the rest of your life, you're just you're going jumping straight from one to the other. So those little things that you know tips that you can pick up kind of through various freelancing networks and that sort of thing. I love hearing about those. They don’t have to cost much or anything. 

00:17:08 Laura Fitzachary

 It's tough like it is. It can be really tough. Like I try not to have screens. Because the way to get me off the computer was to watch TV. And I'm like, I'm just going from a screen to a screen, so now it's reading. I go from the screen to reading, so I work a bit later in the day and then I read for the rest of .. or as much as I can. Or I go out. Leave the house.

00:17:31 Lucy Jane Santos

What? What? Leave the house.

00:17:34 Christina Lister

But sometimes I think you need something in the diary to get you out because it can be really easy. Otherwise, just to carry on, especially you know you love what you're doing, perhaps. And you're passionate about it and maybe a bit of a perfectionist. So you just want to really prove yourself whatever it is. But yeah. So sometimes I think you need things to force you to put everything down.

00:17:53 Laura Fitzachary

That actually leads really beautifully onto the next question, because it kind of affects me. I'm I'm a quite an extrovert, so and freelance work can sometimes lead to isolation. So how do you maintain a sense of community or connection with others while you're working independently? And any tips then for the field of history if if you have any?

00:18:13 Christina Lister

I think this is such a big one actually. I mean, prior to the pandemic, I used to travel to see clients maybe once a week fortnight, something like that. And since March 2020 I've had two or three in person meetings. That's it, which has actually been really hard adjustment for me. And you know, in all honesty that side was almost easier during the pandemic, if you just take that element of the pandemic because a lot of people were in the same boat, so there were a lot of things in the sector that were organised for people to keep them in touch and that's kind of dropped off generally. So I think it's as a freelancer in itself. I think you can feel like an outsider. There's things like, you know, funded training in the sectors, not necessarily open to freelancers or even things like over the years I've come across sector surveys and there's just no option in the questions and the more choice questions to say that you're a freelance or self-employed, you know that all the answers, all the answer options, assume that you work for an organisation or an institution. So things like that can be really off putting. Although I think that is changing. That has been changing over the last few years I built up a really big community through Twitter. Originally I'd say in particular sort of over the last well over the last 10 years really in the last year or two that's become, that's just not the space it was for me. And actually that's causing an issue because the connections I made on there and I've made real life friendships out of connections on there that I. So for example Marge Ainsley, who I worked with for years and is such a close friend now, we originally just connected on Twitter. Then we saw each other a couple of in person conferences and then started working together. So but that space isn't quite what it was in terms of toxicity and engagement and all sorts of other things. But there's no like for like replacement where everybody in the sector is, you know, people have kind of been dipping their toes inside the platform, so that's a bit of an issue. I think there are some LinkedIn groups that are a bit more sort of community network key focus. Some of them are a bit more salesy.

I think like all those things you know can be a LinkedIn group or Facebook group, they need really good moderation so that they sort of stay useful really as spaces. I think there's loads of freelance networks you can join, and even I've seen and I took part in this during the pandemic. There are some that will organise like online co working spaces. So you all kind of come to a zoom or teams meeting and you have a bit of a chat and then whoever's facilitating them will say right now, let's go off and do 50 minutes of work, for example, and people have the choice whether they stay on the call and whether they have their camera on or off. So the idea is you've got that accountability, especially the people who like to keep their cameras on, you know that you've gotta be looking like you're working at least. And then after that time, they come back together and have a bit of a chat. Sometimes they're more slightly more formal and facilitated questions, so you know there's lovely little ideas like that. And I think if there's something that's not, if you don't have a network physically near you or online, I would encourage people to try to create one themselves, because some people you know there will be other people in your shoes and if you reach out to them, chances are they'll love it. If if you organise a little coffee in a local coffee shop or whatever it is. I mean, one of my colleagues, she used to have a target. She set up a target because she wasn't an extrovert, so she had a target of meeting at least one new person a month in person, like for a coffee or tea and I you know, that's a really nice idea as well. I think it forces you to get out the house and make time for it. I think some of it can also just be a mindset because, you know, some freelancers might see each other as competition for the same sort of work. We'd always through museum freelance, encourage people to really see others as collaborators, and actually other freelancers can be a huge source of work for you. Whether you work with them on a project as an associate or you know I hate going back to clients and saying sorry, I can't take this on. I much prefer to be able to say, but I really recommend so and so. You know that's that's a value to the potential clients, so.

So I think it's a mix, but I think like everything with freelancing, it comes down to you, you know no one else is going to do it for you. You're the one who has to be proactive and make it happen and it's not gonna happen if you just sit at your desk and keep, like refreshing your emails hoping that some amazing opportunities will come about.

00:22:26 Laura Fitzachary

Why thank you and actually echoing what Karen said to us at the end of during episode 5 of season one during the finance, she always said that instead of looking at people as competitors -look at them as potential collaborators, and once you wrap your mind around that, you know you're. I'm I'm I'm. I'm a bit of a chatterbox. I'll go in and I'll network my socks off so it doesn't. It doesn't bother me to chat to anyone. And if someone's doing the same thing as me, I'm like, oh, brilliant. We can collab on this and do this. And that's how I've met some incredible people like we met over Twitter, yes.

We haven't met in real life, which is so sad.

00:23:00 Lucy Jane Santos

I was actually trying to think when we first contacted when we first got in contact, it was definitely the Twitter or Instagram was something. But yeah, it's it.

It's been a I mean, these things are a powerful way. It's certainly something I'm much better at as connecting via social media than in real life because I don't think. I mean, I'm not as chatty and as bubbly as Laura. So when I go to an event, I'm not necessarily going to be networking. I may be standing in the corner, maybe helping with the coats.

I quite like doing that, but I back I did used to go to Christina's Museum of freelance events and I've been to one of the conferences as well, and they were always incredibly valuable. But I kind of felt that I sort of fell like, you know, between two stalls on that one, though, because I was going as someone who was working in museums, but I wasn't freelancing in museums at that point, I was freelancing in history, but it was really lovely to be able to go and hang out with people who were doing similar things, similar interests and those networking opportunities that come from them can be so fantastic, but also just not feeling alone, just making friends and these are all lovely things.

00:24:07 Christina Lister

I think it's interesting what you saying there, but I think that's a really good point about this idea that it doesn't have to be networking with people in your immediate circle or sphere of work. This idea of going a bit off tangent actually because that I think in terms of just learning more and also actually they're possibly more likely to be a source of work as well.

I think also I I had coffee with a former client who just started freelancing and just wanted to pick my brains a few months ago. But I live near Norwich and Norfolk east England.

And and you know, I sort of biked into the city and thought, well, that ticks my sort of exercise and fresh air box for the day. But even though we only met for an hour and a half, you know, that was 3 hours out of my day, which is actually, if I'm not fully quite working a full working day because the school runs, that's more than half my day gone. So you have to be quite disciplined, I think, in terms of you know what's the value to you? What fills your cup? What you want to get out of those things. So actually, like, online networking can actually from a time point of view can be a lot more efficient. And obviously it opens up the door to chat to people for much, much further afield, which I think can be really positive. The other thing I'd say is that it's a lot easier now.

What you were saying earlier about being, you know, if you're introverted extrovert to find something that you're more comfortable with, you know, I just think that is one of the benefits of freelancing. It's your choice. So if you're really not comfortable going to in person events, I just think don't put yourself through it. If you if you see it's something that will push you slightly out of your comfort zone. And actually that's kind of a growth opportunity and you think no, come on, I can do this.

Let's just go and do it for half an hour. Fine, but if it's something that really gives you deep rooted anxiety, I just think don't do it. You know, find something else that you're more comfortable with online. And again, you know, there are different social media platforms, you know, some and more visual than others. Some are more sort of text word based. So again, I think there's loads of pockets there that you can find for something that works for you.

00:26:00 Lucy Jane Santos

I was just thinking about someone. I won't say who they are, but it's someone never directly spoken to on social, but she always likes my posts and I always like her post and then we followed each other on this and that. And you know we subscribed to each other's Substack and things and I we've never spoken. But I am so have such friendly thoughts to towards her.

And I think perhaps we are friendly, though we've never spoken, but that's another type of really weird online networking, isn't it? Where you just you just support someone you just like their stuff, you don't have to talk to them. You don't have to do anything other than just to be supportive. And I think I think that's another for some people like me, who are very introverted.

Actually, that's the the that's the sweet spot. I think it's just someone over the years that you just like each other stuff all the time, but it doesn't need to go any further than that.

00:26:54 Christina Lister

But it's I guess it's also that could be a springboard. I think you know if I know sometimes people can really struggle to think on what I need to post something. Oh, I need to share something on social media. But I can say well, you know sometimes actually it it doesn't have to be your own news that you're broadcasting actually just going in and like you say, supporting others.

And appreciating others work or commenting or asking a question, you know that in itself is really valuable and helps with that, just connection and kind of community building.

00:27:20 Lucy Jane Santos

There can be so many different ways of doing it, isn't there? And so many ways of not feeling isolated and so many ways of feeling that you are building connections and helping other people, but also putting yourself out there and moving forward as well. So putting yourself out there, making new connections, getting new work sort of leads us into the next question which is around financial stability.

Which is something that is so important and so concerning for all freelancers. So we're looking in this question about what steps you've taken to ensure your financial well-being and reduce the financial stress associated with freelancing. I mean, you don't have to be too specific. We're not being too nosy around. We're just looking at general strategies.

00:28:04 Christina Lister

I mean, I think this is actually the main, if financially your business as a viable, you're not bringing in or you know the money you need to that is ultimately going to be I think for most people, the biggest cause of stress. So this is crucial. I mean, I think one of the aspects and why through museum freelance, we did a lot of lobbying about rates of pay and day rates.

Because you know the sector doesn't always pay brilliantly and just so you know, if I think there's also a lot of misunderstanding from clients about how freelance day rates are worked out and what they need to cover. So typically they will take like an annual salary divided by the number of working days a year and think ohh yeah, here we go £110 a day, that's really, you know, decent. And it's not because of see that pay rate needs to take account of so many other things that you need to pay for and also start a salary is not all that an organisation will pay. You know that staff member there are other things on costs as well and like pension contribution and so on. So I think I mean for for me and it's a very personal decision, I didn't start freelancing until I was more established in my career because that just allowed me to save up a bit of a slush fund and just have a bit more confidence that if things didn't go well, certainly the first few months I wasn't bringing in lots of work, then at least I have something to fall back on. I know alot of people now are able to combine freelancing with a part time employed position that can work really well and.

You know, sort of people are dipping their toes into freelancing to see if it's for them without fully committing or having to pull in a kind of full time freelance income. I'm really disciplined. I love a spreadsheet which I know not everyone does, but I'm really disciplined around that. And so I track my income and track spending a really big thing for me is tracking my time. So I use an App called Toggle that's free and on there I have set up so I have for every client project I track my time for each client. I also have some other categories to track my time on so marketing new business finance, office admin and training are my five.

00:30:08 Christina Lister

I just can't emphasise enough how important that has been for me because through that if I quote replying, I can then if I win that work, I'll check my time on it. So I'll then be able to see, OK, I really over serviced on this. I thought it was gonna take me 10 days. It took me 15. How can I avoid that happening in future? Do I need to on some of the projects in future actually create for 15? Was I really really inefficient?

You know what were the problems on that? So that's one side of it and the other one is I have a really good understanding of how much time I spend on non client work or non fee earning work because that's when I started out I was I think I was quite unrealistic there and thought Oh yeah, sort of 90/95% of my time I'd be able to build someone for and therefore made all sorts of calculations off the back of that. But that's quite unrealistic I think in my research generally, people will tend to you need to spend sort of 20 to 40% of their time on things they can't invoice the client for. So like I was saying and actually finding the work, pitching for the work, promoting themselves, doing their accounts and finances and that sort of thing. So yeah, tracking times, a really good one. 

Also things like again it's easier overtime but being really assertive with clients over payments, so especially for bigger projects now I tend to ask for some money upfront once we have signed the contract. So typically like maybe 25% of the fee and then in stage payments, whereas I think earlier on I'd, I'd kind of just sign up to whatever the client offered, which offered was actually just payment at the end. I think also and being really assertive to make sure that paperwork is completed and all agreed and sign up front, so proactively asking clients, do you need a purchase order number, do you need to complete a new supplier form? In my experience universities are the worst for amounts of paperwork you need to complete and sometimes it feel it's totally out of proportion. You know, if you're doing a day or Two's work, it's it's not a lot of money and you have to still have to fill in all this paperwork, which actually can take an hour or two.

So that's something really to to bear in mind. I don't actually have an accountant because I love the spreadsheet and I feel like my finance is manageable. But again, this idea of, you know, understanding your sort of strengths and weaknesses and I know lots of freelancers who don't have a spreadsheet, don't like the maths and so they would rather than outsource that to an expert, they get the Peace of Mind and can free up their time to spend on things they they love. So I yeah, I think it's it's a mix of that. But I think the main thing is to just be assertive and be on top of your finances. I think the minute you start losing track of that or putting your head in the snd, you're gonna be in trouble.

00:32:39 Laura Fitzachary

Oh, I agree. Big time actually from Karen who we had on for the finance episode. I got QuickBooks because of her suggestion and it has its own feature in it that you can hire an accountant via QuickBooks or they'll show you how to be your own accountant, which has been I'm a devil for leaving it all. When it comes to the money side of it.

So yeah, to keep on top of it is it's really, really good advice.

00:33:02 Christina Lister

But it's really awkward, isn't it? You know, and having to chase payment is really awkward. I actually know the freelancer who created a fake email – either invoices@ or finances@ e-mail address that went to their domain, so they could pretend to be like a finance person chasing a finance team for payment about their invoice because they just felt it was just so awkward being the person who's done the work and then is chasing for payment. So I thought that was well, that was quite a novel way of doing things.

00:33:31 Laura Fitzachary 

That is so clever.

00:33:33 Lucy Jane Santos

It. Yeah, I mean it does, it does help to have that separation, doesn't it? It helps you as a person to chase the money, but also finance teams seem, you know, recognise and appreciate other finance teams a little bit more. I think though they, especially with where if you're in a museum or a big institution, they do tend to not really takes much respect for their freelancers, I think, and I'm actually in in my day job. I did get a a museum freelance this week sent a message and I was so impressed because his because he was asking for payment and his e-mail said do you need a purchase order? You know, do you need to do this? Do you need to set me up as a freelancer? He's probably been speaking to you, Christina.

And I had to come back and say no, we don't need any of and then I did say to him, I know what you're saying here. I will pay you in three days because we respect freelancers and I work with those people that you're probably chasing the money. And I know that they do not pay. I know that I'm waiting for six weeks for for the in this case, the big museums to pay, sometimes six months their big team still haven't paid and and yeah, really hard.

00:34:36 Christina Lister

I mean, I've had a freelancer friend who was calling out the client in tears because they're quite chunky. Payment for her was so late that she couldn't pay her mortgage that that month, you know, like really difficult. Again, I think that's, I think that's changing gradually in the sector. I think there's more awareness now. Now and yeah, some organisations are phenomenal. Like you said, Lucy will pay now me within a week, which is just, yeah, absolutely brilliant and probably a much better terms actually than the the bigger companies. I mean that's something to factor in for. I think again, you know if you haven't got that this sort of thing actually sometimes I mean I did for the training sessions I used to run, I actually did this graph where I showed month by month, one year as a proportion of the year. What I did invoiced and then as a proportion of the year I was worked and as a proportion of the year when I was paid what and it was really interesting because generally my hours worked sort of fluctuated.

Well, they were quite stable actually apart from I think sort of they went down in August and December bit more monthly for holidays. And then in terms of invoicing when how much I could invoice each month that fluctuated a lot. And then if you looked at the graph which showed when I was paid that almost mirrored my sort of invoicing, but it was shuffeled along one one or two months, so it's just that realisation that, especially when you're starting out, you know you're not, you might not be paid some money for several months. So yeah, you need you need to just sort of I think be be aware of.

00:36:05 Lucy Jane Santos

So freelancers often face pressure to take on more work than they can handle. How do you set boundaries to prevent overcommitting and also to maintaining that healthy work life balance?

00:36:16 Christina Lister

I think this is something that's become a bit easier for me the longer I've been doing it, I think to begin with it's really common. You know, you don't want to miss out on any work, so you overcommit. I think actually again you can be said, I mean with some clients, I've actually said, you know, I'd love to do this work with you. I'm not able to start until or I'd love to do this work with you. I wouldn't be able to do it by then, would you consider?

And actually, you know, sometimes they really won't because of their funding requirements and deadlines. But sometimes you'd be surprised how many are open to that, definitely, you know, tracking your time and keeping on top of that being organised with your kind of project management. I don't know if either of you come across Trello as a kind of project management. I know a lot of teams use that, but I find that really helpful where I have different categories and can colour code things that are urgent and that sort of thing. I think also having questions to help you make decisions on whether it's worth a bit of stress to take on something else you know. Is it a really juicy project? Is it a client or an organisation you always love to work? Or is it something that you think will be a real springboard to another amazing opportunity? So I think there's also that is it worth it? Kind of. What do I value? You question that you can help to help make decisions. I think like a lot of things, though, as long as you're making a conscious decision and being proactive about it, so you're the one in control of it. It's not just that you're sort of reactively, just taking on all this work and then, you know, within a couple of weeks, you feel really, really stressed. I think it's really important that you're making the choices. 

I think it's also this idea of expectations with clients. And again, you know, if you're giving clients the benefit of doubt here, some of them have really not project managed freelancers before potentially. So you know, you take. I'd always encourage freelancers to take the initiative. And say you know, so I'll ask questions at the start of the projects you know, do you want a weekly or a fortnightly project report? Just, you know, with an update, a few bullets? Or do you just want things ad hoc? You know, what are your deadlines? How do you prefer corresponding? You know, do you prefer phone calls? I I know some clients really like WhatsApp now. And that's for me. I really prefer WhatsApp not to be a work thing. So I have. I've just said no about that and that's not been an issue, but so you know there might be some boundaries like that, but again someone else might find, yeah, WhatsApp really works for me.

You can easily and informally, you know, get back to people on that. So. But I think if you set the expectations with the client and start, that really helps as well. And there can be that danger if you're so responsive to begin with that they always come to expect that. So if you don't think you can keep delivering to that sort of level of turn around throughout a project, you might want to just slow down a bit at the outset so you don't sort of make a rod for your own back.

00:38:57 Laura Fitzachary

I think, then just to kind of lead into into the next question pursuit of continuous learning, you know, that's essential for us in the field of history. Have you come across anyone trying to make time for professional development while staying updated on their research while freelancing? So this kind of idea of trying to marry the two because I find that's kind of hard to do. I'll get lost in a rabbit hole of research and nearly forget to e-mail somebody back.

00:39:24 Christina Lister

I think that's a danger, isn't it, when it's something you really interested in? I found that with my book, I just was forever going down rabbit holes and then.

I get really cross with myself because I just thought I'd look back on the same thing. I haven't actually written anything today or achieved anything apart from OK, well, that did satisfy a bit of curiosity. I think realistically it's sort of goes in peaks and trust. I think if you're really busy with paid client work that is naturally always probably going to take a priority. But I think if you, if you look across the year, I think it can be really helpful to almost pretend like you're an employee and you have like, an annual review with your line manager. So you say to yourself, whether it's in January, I mean January or September, typically a good times, but you have that kind of new school year or New year, new me or you have all these unrealistic hopes and expectations, but let's let's ride with that and think, OK.

You know, have you identified any gaps, any skills gaps that you might want to plug? Have you been looking at client briefs or chatting to people and you think, ohh, they all seem to be asking for this. And I've actually never done that before or I don't really have a lot of experience and that, you know, are there trends about what people seem to be asking for. So doing a bit of an annual kind of CPD review like that can be really useful, and setting some kind of target. Well, I was really lucky when I worked with PR agency. We actually had a 5% of our salary as a CPD budget.

Have not had that anywhere else and you know that might feel out of reach for you if you're freelancing, but I think the real positive is that it doesn't have to. It doesn't have to be formal courses that cost money. I mean, the best course I ever did as a freelancer was it was a two day in person course on group facilitation method. It's it's run from the Institute of Cultural Affairs. And I mean, I use the two methods we were taught there and for facilitating workshops, focused conversations and consensus and consensus workshops. I use them like every month, still with clients. And it gave me so much more confidence in facilitating workshops.

00:41:15 Christina Lister

So that for me maybe £300 or £400 a few years ago, plus one night's accommodation and travel. So it was a it was a real sizeable investment for me. I've never done anything like that. It was a green on so, but that really was a very valuable investment for me.

But I would say other things, you know, it just doesn't have to be that kind of formal course. They're helpful if you want something for your CV and you want maybe a bit more credibility, but, you know, even something like the Centre for Cultural Value, they released two week Future Learn courses on evaluation for the cultural sector earlier this autumn, which was really, really good, you know, that was free of charge you do it within the first two weeks.

So things like that are really useful to keep your eye out on, but it can be anything like subscribing to E newsletters. Actually just being active on social media.

They're following some key influence of people who are sharing their research and just reading up on that, staying on top of research and best practise, social gatherings, networking and that sort of thing. And actually, for me, one of my favourite ways is just listening to podcasts we talked earlier about sort of isolation and being lonely. So for me, if I'm, say, just washing up after lunch. Having a podcast on or from going for that walk kill two birds there. You know you get a bit fresh air exercise and you listen to podcast. That's your that to me, that's really an efficient way of doing things. So yeah, I just think professionals can take all sorts of forms and that's the beauty of it. But I would always say try to make time for it because if you look back over a year and you really haven't done any, if you then start to if you get out of the habit of that. And I think that's when.

So, I mean, I primarily work in marketing and certainly for me that's really a really dangerous place to be in because I feel then that my knowledge and skills will start to become a bit irrelevant or redundant because things change quite a lot. So it's not just a nice to have in many ways actually is something that is a necessity.

00:43:03 Lucy Jane Santos

I am an absolute devil for signing on for online courses, CPD or whatever it is, and then not actually attending them, swearing that I will listen to the catch up in the recordings and then they just sit in my inbox until it's too late. I've got probably about five days worth of recordings waiting to listen to.

And that's something I'm really guilty of not doing very well, but I mean.

I write books. The Society of Authors at the moment are doing some really good CPD. I almost went to one last week but definitely got the recording on how to light up your office for online calls, which I thought was a really interesting one to think about. You know using zoom and getting the best, most flattering light. 

So they've been, I mean, every every couple of weeks they've been doing some really interesting CPD's. And the Empowered Author run by Sam Missingham,

Which I think the empowered author which is run by Sam Missingham, who is on Twitter and on TikTok did a two day conference. 

So marketing your books, which again cannot can’t wait to listen to and is, by all accounts absolutely fabulous. So there are lots of things going on that you do just have to try and find them, don't you?

And I think again, as we started saying earlier post pandemic or post 2020, there's been so many of these things that are online that are accessible and that a few years back would be in person and the Society of Authors in particular has been very good at keeping those virtual and online CPD stuff going. And it has been fantastic. I have been to several of them in person, you know, in person In person, online and live as it were, and they have been brilliant.

00:44:49 Christina Lister

But I think that's a really good point though this because I'm I'm exactly the same as you. Except I think now I've kind of accepted that I'm really rubbish at listening to recordings. It just doesn't happen despite my best intentions. So sometimes having that accountability of either having paid a small amount or having booked a train or like in the case of this Future Learn one from the centre of the cultural value that was only free if you get it done within the two weeks. And I got it done within the two weeks. That was a really good motivation.

For me, I mean, I know some people can be really disciplined and they'll they'll time block can be like right Friday afternoon. That's my CPD time. But my word does that take some discipline.

00:45:25 Lucy Jane Santos

So stress and impostor syndrome can affect freelancers. How do we, as freelancers and historians, cope with self doubt? And how do we maintain confidence in skills and knowledge? Any help?

00:45:38 Christina Lister

Full disclosure on this, I don't feel I have fully cracked it and I don't. I think it's sort of an age thing. I can't almost come to the election that I'm not sure I ever will and I don't know. I'm sort of almost a piece of that. I'm trying to now use it in a positive way and think to myself well, it's because I care.

And have you know empathy? And I am, can you know, I want to do a really good job. I had huge imposter syndrome writing my book. Never written a book before. I had to juggle it alongside everything else. I had these visions of me sitting in some like Airbnb, beach side retreat, you know, first researching for a year and then yeah, taking months off and just, you know this amazing view you writing this amazing book and see that wasn't at all how it happened to me. I had to fully juggle it around everything else.

Actually, Steve Slack, who's an interpretation consultant, he wrote a book on Interpreting Heritage a couple of years before me, and he had. He was just such a lovely source of sort of support. And he said, and this is a quote from one of his emails, the encyclopaedic stuff, because I was really worried. I said, oh, I haven't got this and how to fit in this and I need to, you know, I just, I think that was a big source of stress to me that I thought this book had to be everything and he just said the encyclopaedic stuff can wait for books that has encyclopaedia in the title. So now I want to hear what you Christina have for your reader. And it was just the best advice because, you know, he was just saying it's just your voice.

And I just, I think that really reassured me and I thought that's all I can do. It can just be my perspectives and my thoughts that I am sharing with the world and I'm just adding to a conversation about museum marketing and that just felt like that took quite a lot of pressure off. So that was really helped with my book and I've been trying to apply that to to things more broadly. I think it's just this idea of I mentioned earlier about, you know, potentially going a bit beyond your comfort zone. But if you start to really veer too far away from that. You might be really out of your depth, so it's also about recognising when is that actually, it's not imposter syndrome, but you are actually in territory which you know you're starting to tackle things or being asked to do things that is not in your actual skill sets. So I think knowing the distinction there is really useful. Trying not to compare yourself to others -especially their highlights on social media, which is really hard to do kind of carving out your own like USP unique selling point. Because when you're a freelancer, it's not just experience, but we always used to say in our training courses your USP can be all sorts of other things, like actually your manner, you know how empathetic you are, if you're a good listener, how curious you are, how organise your and all these other things. It doesn't. So someone new as a freelancer, you know, you can't try to compete with someone on experience. If if other people have been doing it for 30 years. You have to find something else.

That sets you apart from them and it, you know, for someone new, it might be enthusiasm or an approach. Or uh, yeah, in methodology or different perspective or the fact that you're available actually really short notice, you know, can be all these other sorts of things that make you special, I think, linked to this idea of not comparing yourself to others that you see on social media.

I'd also say be really clear with yourself on why you're freelancing. What do you hope to get out of it? For some people it might be this like big six figure business and they're showing off on social media, but you know, for others it's actually just about being able to do something they love, make enough money, you know, to be comfortable, perhaps to have more time available for caring responsibilities or hobbies, you know. So I think it's also being able to sort of shut off all that, that noise around you. I think you do have to be quite tough.

00:49:11 Christina Lister

Because you don't have that when you're employed, you know, typically you'll have a line manager and you'll have sort of objectives and you'll get feedback and you'll get support hopefully and that sort of thing. You kind of don't have that. So you do have develop a bit of independence and kind of tough skin because you won't necessarily even if at the end of a project the client says thanks.

They might still not, you know, really say, oh, it's absolutely phenomenal because for them, what you delivered is just a piece of work. And it might you've put. You might pull your heart and soul into it, and it might mean so much to you, but for them it might just be one piece in the much bigger project they're working on, so you can't have to learn to. Not that not take that personally as well.

You know, and also since I'll look back and there are pieces of work, I didn't go for because the imposter syndrome. Actually. Yeah. You know, I froze. And that's actually, I look back in. I feel sad. You know, I feel sad about that. You know, there are stats, aren't there research? It's it's often around women and how you know, the same with employed positions. They won't go a lot of people won't go for them unless they feel they meet 90/95% of the points in like a job specification and that sort of thing. So I guess you know you have to push your self a little bit on there because I think otherwise there is a chance you'll really miss out on really good opportunities. I think they cannot. Impostor syndrome can also really be linked to perfectionism as well. You know, this idea that you're sort of really worried about delivering a piece of work unless it's your definition of perfect, and that can really stop you from actually make having a profitable business.

00:50:41 Christina Lister

Especially if you're working on fixed price contracts. Like I say, a friend was a translator and would be paid per a certain amount per 100 or 1000 words they translated, but they just couldn't let it go and they just kept kind of chipping away and trying to fine tune the translation. So actually as a result of that, they're hourly rate equivalent was awful because they were just spending so long on it, whereas perhaps another translator would have been able to say, yeah, Bish Bosh, job done. That's good enough and handed it in and that would have been a really good hourly rate. So I think there's something around there and being able to also just say actually that's good enough that that will do that ticks all the boxes in the brief I'm now going to let it go. Send it off in the world or surrender it. Actually, I heard that on a podcast a few months ago about. It was what's I. Think was the writer of the Guardian who said that she surrenders her book manuscripts cause she never feels they're ready to go out in the world and was like, that really resonated.

00:51:39 Laura Fitzachary

Yes. Yeah, big time. It's the same in art as well. You know, a lot of artists. Yeah. Keep painting. And you have to just take the canvas off them and go. It's finished. It's done because they will always see something wrong with this and say it just it's just across the fields, isn't it? It's just that idea of wanting it to be because especially now that I'm in the early stage is supposed to yourselves. I'm at the very other end of the scale, so it's that I really want to prove my worth by being perfect. But I have to find that balance between getting it actually done and getting it done well. Which you know -it's tough.

00:52:15 Lucy Jane Santos

Yeah, yeah, obviously. And I think in, I mean in history is probably one of the problems with putting things out there is people will always find the thing that you've done wrong. You know, the thing that you're slightly miscategorized or the the date that you slightly, you know you put the wrong number or you didn't Fact Check it or you missed something and you're especially. Especially who are getting, especially in history, someone is always going to pull you up on that and that's the bit that is terrifying as well, isn't it? That you're gonna finish your book? You're gonna think it's good enough. And then it's gonna get published and then someone spots that tiny little error, tiny little error and and make a big fuss of it. That's the that's the fear, isn't it?

00:52:56 Christina Lister

Yeah, I feel that with my book is not out yet, but I definitely feel that. And I I keep telling myself I've done my best. I've really, really done my best and. I guess you have to think you know my books like 80,000 words. So if there is a sentence here that that people will, you know, pull up, then I'd like to hope that. The others, I don't know, 79,500 words will still be, you know you you have to sort of get that perspective, don't you? And and also like someone said to me, well, you know you can always suggest they write a book there. 

00:53:30 Lucy Jane Santos

Yes, exactly. And it will. I mean, it can be doing something on TV as well, isn't it, you know, anything, anything where you're putting your words out there at a particular moment in your day and you could say something slightly wrong, or you could slightly mischaracterize something and it's just it's a permanent record of what you did.

00:53:46 Christina Lister

Yeah, no, is there's a lot of pressure and and also actually if you're on social media, you're likely to sooner or later come under some hate, you know, and and potentially trolling. I heard something the other week, which I thought was quite interesting. You know, you're never you, you're just never going to please everybody and you're never going to be everybody's cup of tea. So I think this idea that sometimes you might try to shape shift yourself to try to be this person. Or do this work, that is everybody's cup of tea. You know, that might be something you think is quite attractive and feasible, but it's not because even if you will always, you know, anger will not anger somebody, but you will. There will always be people who don't really gel with what you're doing or saying. And I think that's when if you at least stay true to your own values and you know you've done your best and also you know why you're doing it then.

Yeah, I think otherwise. If you if you start the shape shifting or starting to try to appease lots of different people, that's that's a really sort of slippery slidy path to a bit of a mess.

00:54:48 Laura Fitzachary

Thank you. Absolutely. What is it? What people think of you is none of your business. That was the great Ru Paul who said that.

Which is good because what people think of you is not. Yeah, but it's still when you read it, though, it still hurts.

00:55:04 Christina Lister

Yeah, I think that's why. Like I said earlier, I think this idea of also having things outside of that work, whether it's other people or be something, so that if things get quite, you know, hard work, yeah, you can switch off and be distracted or say, you know somewhere.

00:55:21 Laura Fitzachary

Yeah, we talked about it on the online presence episode with Tash, and she was great for that. Just to give a bit of how to deal with any online hate, what role does physical health play in your self-care routine and how do you ensure you maintain a healthy lifestyle while managing a freelance career?

00:55:38 Christina Lister

Yeah, I think this is this is a huge one and I guess a lot of people also got quite conscious of it during the pandemic. I'm now sort of at a certain age where I'm sort of even, you know, there's other elements of my health that I'm really conscious of. I think it's difficult because, you know, for start when you're freelancing, unless you have certain insurance, you're not going to paid if you're sick, you know, if you're taking days off. So not not only are you unwell, but you also have that additional stress that just compounds things. So I think anything you can do to invest in your physical health I think will help your mental health and well-being as well. And you know, like we said, simple things like getting away from your screen and just moving your body.

And I know like, I really like exercise, but I know not everyone does, but it can be so it can be, you know, not using the word exercise actually just framing it as movement and trying to find something that you enjoy, you know whether that is just a country walk or a yoga class or again, if you can't leave the house, the caring responsibilities or or money or whatever, you know, there's so many really good things on YouTube now that are free. I've done like little yoga workouts or strength training or these dance body workouts from this sort of fitness influencer from Canada. She does like 90s classics, dance parties, and Christmas tunes. Amazing or like obviously, the body coach like Joe Wicks has has got hundreds of things on there. I think for me because I I don't really do a lot of in person meetings with clients anymore, I've start actually going to the gym to classes a couple of times a week in the middle of the day, even if that means that I need to claw those hours back early morning or evening or weekend. That for me is worth it because I just think for me, like, just being in the home office and on it's Friday and not seeing a soul, it's just not healthy. It's just not how I want to live my life for the next few years. So I love body pump now. I used to run but my joints are a bit creepy. So umm, I love a body pump class by kind of weight lifting and find that really empowering. I think. I mean I remember when I started off working like 20 years ago. I I had a a gym membership and I'd like put my gym bag in the back of the car, take it to work and then I'd stay at work till and then like I was just never done and it'd be like 637.

And by the time it got to about there. Yeah, I mean, I'm too tired. I'm really hungry. And I'm just gonna go home and have dinner, and I just won't make it to the gym. And I think now I I sort of think my work will never be done in inverted commas, you know? So this idea of you have to make self-care whatever that looks like to you into habit, you can't say. Ohh. I'll go for a walk when I'm done.

You know you're always gonna have other deadlines in work. I mean, yes. Have a chocolate when you finished a little. You know you've submitted something to a client that sort of treat, but I think it's really important that you just it's just something you need to embed in your well daily or at least weekly routine. I think sometimes self-care like on social media it's like ohh it's candles and like body cream and a bath. And absolutely if that relaxes you and you enjoy that great. 

But I think that sometimes can make it sound a bit pampery and a bit of a luxury and A and just not a necessity. And I think if you frame self-care more broadly in terms of actually this is really about looking after my physical health, my mental health and as a result, being able to keep working and bringing the income and do what I love and have a fulfilling career, then I think that's when it's easier to say yes, it's just part of my day.

00:59:05 Lucy Jane Santos

One of the last questions was about what advice would give to aspiring freelancers who are just starting their career and really everything you've said is stuff that people should start immediately. You know, if you're listening to this and you haven't set up your freelance business yet, you're just about to or you've just done it or even like myself and Laura have been doing it for a little while.

These are all things that we need to start thinking about and it is really important. We've said this several times over the last two seasons, but self-care is the most important part, in my opinion, at least of being a freelancer historian is not the CPD, it's not the research rabbit holes, it is just looking after yourself because you are your business and your business is you and the boundaries are blurred. But ultimately, if you're not healthy and if you can't work, you're not getting paid anyway. So let's start right, and let's look after ourselves.

01:00:00 Christina Lister

And the thing where you say that start right? So if someone's new to it, I'd say just embed those getting the good habits from day one because I know all the sort of motivational speakers and all fitness influence to say this, that you can't always rely on motivation. So if you create habits then. Actually when? When that motivation sort of flags a bit or you feel really overwhelmed and stressed because you have just built it into your routine in some way or form. It's a habit. It's just what you do. You don't even question it, you know. So there are some people who say, OK, if you want to work out early in the morning, actually the night before, get out your Like get out your workout clothes, put the water out. You know, just get everything set up to, like, take away as much. In marketing. We talk about friction to take away as much friction as possible. Take away as many barriers for you to actually just get on, you know, get up in the morning and get it done. And I think that sort of approach, you know, just make tt is, yeah. As much as that habit is possible and kind of really just easy and fun. And this is the thing. Like, I keep saying it has to be something that works for you and those, you know that that will be personal to different people. I don't know if come across the New Economics Foundation, but they have. And the thing that we used to really like in music in freelance called the five ways to well-being.

So it's connect talk and listen be there feel connected. Be active. Do what you can. Enjoy what you do. Move your mood. Take notice. Remember the simple things that give you joy. Keep learning. Embrace new experiences. See opportunities to surprise yourself, and then give your time your words, your presence. So there. Yeah. There. The five ways to well-being from the New Economics Foundation and then these five steps.

And I just think they're almost like a really perfect framework for freelancers, just to have as prompts and reminders, and I think it's stuff we've really talked about being connected. You know, being active and moving, remembering simple things that give you joy. Keep learning that CP, perhaps just that last one give. We haven't talked as much about this and you know, and that can be giving, just sharing your expertise, your research, your perspectives. On a blog or website or on social media. Or it can be something a bit deeper or actually sort of volunteering. That can be a really good way of connecting with other people and also kind of upskilling. So last year I became a trustee of Kids and Museum.

And and I was interested in this for loads and loads of reasons. But I mean a couple of them were that I thought would be really nice to work with colleagues effectively. Other trustees over a longer period of time and kind of give back to the sector and learn from them. And that's been, you know, such an enriching and rewarding experience for me. So you know, volunteering could also be something that if time and and and money allows, the people could also be really worthwhile to consider as a freelancer.

01:02:43 Laura Fitzachary

Thank you so much for those incredible answers to those questions, Christina. We really appreciate it and it has been a fantastic episode and well needed for every single historian or indeed any freelancer listening. And then the next section is, of course our business clinic. So obviously we pull from our mail by questions and this time it's all about self-care. And we actually answered one question earlier on which was from one of our listeners, which was - I did a project. The payment was very late. Any tips on how to gently remind them to pay me? So I'm definitely going to reply to them directly and let them know that they, you know, you could also use the the fake accounts count maybe if you want to or of course to listen to earlier on in the episode that is great. 

But the other question was should I have a rainy day fund for when I can't work? And I think that's probably an obvious answer to that question, but a good one.

01:03:33 Christina Lister

And I mean, a lot of people recommend six months which you know actually sounds huge. And I don't want to really scare people off by that. So that is just you know, if you can build up enough savings to cover you for for six months, that is the kind of ideal. But I think anything, anything you can build up, certainly so that you're not relying on, you know, chasing one particular client for you to be able to pay your rent or your mortgage one month. You really don't want that stress month after month after month. I mean, I've got a really, really good friend of mine he's been freelancing for 15 years. He's mum, got really, really poorly and within a few weeks died.

So he had to, you know, start counselling loads of work, sort of parcelling it off, giving it to other freelancers and lost, you know, loads of income. You just, you never know what's going to happen. I mean, there are some insurances, you know, if you're feeling quite vulnerable financially, you know, it might be worth looking into what kinds of insurance you might be able to get to help with those things, or like I said earlier, also rather than just taking a leap and just starting freelancing 100% of the time from scratch, realistically it can take quite a few months to actually  build up work to begin with, so perhaps it's possible to combine to to to do something like a part time employed contract or some kind of project role and start freelancing so you're not just relying on the freelancing income. 

Like I said, the six months I think is what people say is an ideal scenario and that is really tough to build up. But I would really encourage people to to put some money aside. The other thing is tax implications. I'm not gonna go into the details of it now and you know, perhaps not all your listeners are UK based anyway, but certainly like in the UK in terms of how you know, if you're employed, you will pay tax at source. It will come out of your salary each month. Normally, if you're a freelancer, you have to do a tax return and sort of pay. And the initial you won't pay any tax for a few months depending on when you start. But then what happens is you have to pay the tax for what work you've done. But then you also have to start paying in advance upfront for the year ahead, so you kind of the first year you have this double whammy of tax, so you need to understand things like that because otherwise that's something that you know, if you haven't saved up or put some money aside for that, you will be stung by.

Don't want to finish on a negative talking about tax?

01:05:55 Laura Fitzachary

Good. It's good. It's really good to remind our to remind our listeners of that. Thank you so much. Whether it is taking a day off of finding time for a hobby or just laying in a darkened room, self-care is vital to the freelancer and to the freelance historian. Remember, the past will always be there waiting to be explored and new. So take care and keep making history.

 Before we let you go. Christina, we ask our guests if you could choose a dream remote office where and when would it be?

01:06:24 Christina Lister

I just love something with a view of the sea, and actually my family's from Sweden and Stockholm. It to me is just the most beautiful city in the world. So. I could, yeah Stockholm with some cinnamon buns and good coffee to keep me fuelled and a view of the sea.

01:06:40 Laura Fitzachary

Absolutely perfect. We've had all sorts of answers, haven't we?

01:06:45 Lucy Jane Santos

We have but that sounds by far the most yummy actually.

01:06:48 Laura Fitzachary

Yeah, that's the first one.

01:06:48 Christina Lister

It's all about the good food and coffee for me, yeah.

01:06:52 Laura Fitzachary

We like your style. Thank you very, very much to our wonderful guest. Christina, you have been fantastic. Thank you. And you can find her on 

https://www.christinalister.co.uk/

LinkediN: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christinalister/

As for us you can find us on:

@HistBizAGuide

Laura

Twitter: & @laurafitzach

Instagram:   @seekthehistoric

Tik Tok: @seekthehistoric

Lucy

Instagram: @lucyjanesantos_ 

https://lucyjanesantos.substack.com/