Season 1, Episode 5: Finance & Business (with guest host Karen Averby) - Season 1 finale

To round up Season 1, Lucy & Laura are joined by the incredibly generous Karen Averby to  delve into the world of finances, business all basically the admin side of being a historian for hire.

Whether it is having a robust payment schedule or advance agreement in place or just knowing your worth, it seems that the business admin work of being a historian for hire is something to keep at the forefront of your mind …..

A massive, massive thank you to our wonderful guest Karen, the owner of Archangel Heritage Ltd., to get in contact with Karen and the wonderful work she does you can find her at:

Twitter: @karenaverby  or  @ArchAHeritage 
Instagram @karen.averby

And of course you can also get in touch with her via karenaverby.co.uk and archangelheritage.co.uk 

As for us you can find us on:

Twitter: @HistBizAGuide
Instagram: @historybusinessaguide

For Laura:

Twitter: & @laurafitzach
IG:   @seekthehistoric
Tik Tok: @seekthehistoric

For Lucy:

Twitter: @lucyjanesantos_ 
IG: @lucyjanesantos_   
YouTube: @lucyjanesantos_

Until next time!

Transcript

00:00:16 Laura Fitzachary

Welcome to history business – a guide to being a historian for hire.  A new podcast, taking an honest look at building a freelance or portfolio career in the field of history. I suppose that we should introduce ourselves first.  My name is Laura. I am an art historian and museum educator turned historical consultant. Writer, researcher and presenter specialising in mediaeval art and museum studies, but then later transferred to 18th century social history, in particular the history of fashion. And this week an article came out that I was featured on about glowing skin. I was consulted about radiance and the history of exfoliation. And this week I've been doing a lot of work regarding Irish textiles on the French runways.

00:01:05 Lucy Jane Santos

And I'm Lucy Jane Santos. I'm an historical consultant, researcher, writer, and presenter, and I specialise in examining the historic crossroads of health, leisure and beauty with science and technology. I've had a bit of a mixed bag this week, so I was interviewed on zoom for a student documentary and they asked me lots of questions about the history of false eyelashes and no Laura, the very rude origin did not come up!

00:01:34  Laura Fitzachary

Gosh damn.

00:01:35 Lucy Jane Santos

… was that a pun as well … This is a serious history - business thing, we're not going into that. But also I recorded an episode for the podcast London History and in that one I was talking about nightclubs in London in the 20s and 30s. Those illicit ones where booze, was drunk out of teacups, which was usually a more thought of as an American thing but we also did it here.

00:02:05 Laura Fitzachary

In this week's episode of History Business, we will be tackling all those very important questions about setting up and running a freelance business, whether a limited company might be the right structure instead, and maybe even finding out how to get paid. We are delighted to have Karen Averby here with us today. Karen Averby is a historian and research consultant. Karen has worked in the heritage sector since 1997 and moved into private consultancy in 2006 to specialise in historical research. You may also know her as one of the experts behind #HouseHistoryHour on Twitter which is a fantastic way to spend a Thursday evening.

Karen has written many books which include examining town halls, seaside hotels and beechnuts and her media work includes Great British Railway Journeys and historical research for the Antique Roadshow Detectives. Director of Archangel Heritage Limited, a historical research consultancy, established in 2010 and also very fortunately for us here today on History Business. 

Twitter: @karenaverby  or  @ArchAHeritage 

Instagram @karen.averby

And of course you can also get in touch with her via karenaverby.co.uk and archangelheritage.co.uk

Welcome to the show, Karen.

00:03:42 Karen Averby 

That was quite an introduction!

00:03:45 Laura Fitzachary

Yeah, that was Lucy. She's phenomenal at writing instructions.

00:03:49 Lucy Jane Santos 

I just love. I love it. I love love, love introductions too, I just think they're so fun because you find out so much about the person just from having a look on various websites and stuff. And there's always so much to write. The thing about the guests on this show is everyone does so much, and it's really, really cool, so I can't leave anything out.

But this is such an important topic and one that we really had to think carefully about who to ask to sort of navigate us through this mine field.

And also one of the problems we had is that we spoke to people about business and finance and there was quite a few people who admitted they weren't very good at that side of things. And this is something that we are aiming to solve today. Now personally my business structure is self-employed, but I'm considering changing to a limited company format soon.

00:04:40 Laura Fitzachary

And I am one of those people. I haven't a notion. It is such a minefield and I'm actually really, really, really excited for this episode. Thank you for coming on, Karen. 

00:04:52 Karen Averby

Thank you. I hope I can help.

00:04:54 Laura Fitzachary

My first question for you today, as we kick off our episode on finance.  You do so much. Could you talk us through what services you offer as a historian and research consultant and what a day in your working life would look like?

00:05:11 Karen Averby

That's quite a question -two questions.

I'll try not to waffle on too much, and yes, I do do quite a lot of different things. My limited company, Archangel Heritage Limited, is essentially an historical research consultancy and as such provides historical research for the commercial heritage sector throughout the UK. So things like heritage reports to support planning applications for buildings and sites of all types and all dates or historical research to support conservation works. Looking at former paint and colour schemes or decor in historic buildings. So we work with conservation specialists, architects, planners, archaeology and heritage consultants, as well as local councils, national heritage bodies and also people like estate agents who might need research of properties coming onto the market and also things like company histories, for example, at the moment working on a company history for their hundredth year anniversary and they're going to be producing a book.

Essentially, anything that historical research can be applied to any ways that it can be used, and it's quite exciting to see the different ways that it can be used in in business. Planning applications to conservation, and we've even been commissioned to provide research for the police relating to a murder case. So it's quite a range there.

Anything from garages, seaside shelters, churches, homes, houses, civil defence structures, public toilets, tram depots. I don't know if there's a building type we haven't researched over the years. So it's quite diverse, but one of the main things that I do is house histories and that forms a large part of research commissions often for private clients and estate agents. From humble cottages to grand country piles and everything in between, and as a research consultant, I'll advise clients on research they might need for a project. Sometimes provide training for them or their staff and how to research for their particular project needs.

And I can also suggest and advise on archives or specialist collections that might be needed.

Also undertake archive appraisals, usually business archives that may not have been catalogued just to find out what's actually in their archives, which can become great promotional assets for them such as images, plans, even letters. And I can also advise on whether my like to deposit their archive too. I used to be an archivist back in the day. So it's it's kind of interesting to be on both sides.

And then, as Karen Averby, I do some freelance work on quite a few subjects. I do talks, workshops on historical research and all sorts of historical topics. And of course, when I've got time, I explore my own research interests. And I'm also currently enjoying a temporary contract with the Survey of London working part time for them as well, which ends in a few months sadly. So I have quite a full between our Archangel Heritage and my freelance work and the survey I’m really busy at the moment. I don't. I mean, I don't have a typical day as such, because projects and commissions are so varied. I could be, you know, an in another part of the country or I could be working from home. But if if I'm not working at the Survey of London and if I am working from home, I get up about 8 o'clock 8:30 depending on whether I need to be travelling or not.

I work from home. When I write up, I work from home, so I head to my desk around 9:30 and check my emails and respond accordingly including forming like project proposals or fee proposals and projects admin as is needed. Looking at any new commissions that have come in and prioritising them into the schedule, and then I'll start work. Perhaps I'll go through images I've taken in the archives in the last few days. I'll sort them and label them. And if there are any upcoming archive visits that I need to make I'll arrange appointments. I'll look at online archive catalogues and see what documents I might need, and then I might do some reading for a project or write up some research reports. I usually try and make lunch the same every day between 1:00 and 2:00. And I try to make it an hour if I can, although sometimes that’s a slide, I think we've all been guilty of that. And my other half also works at home, so we do try and have lunch together at the same time so that that, you know, makes it into a sort of a definite schedule, which I try and stick to. And in the afternoon, I'll continue what I've been working on that morning for continuity. I just find that works best. And I try and try and finish before. But again, sometimes that doesn't always happen, and then some evenings I'll work on my own research. Or, you know, in the last few months I've just started going back out and about again to talks and events in the evenings as well. So if there's something I fancy going to, I'll do that. But I also try and be already out at an archive or a library so I I'm out already. So I will go.

Make myself go to something jolly in the evening.                                         

00:10:16 Karen Averby

I wouldn't tell 100% there either, to be honest, but it's it's the ideal. It's the ideal. And usually I'm successful. But yes, you know, we have to be gentle with ourselves, don't we, you know. Not to beat ourselves up too much if we go over, you know we have a longer lunch, or if we have a shorter lunch.

00:10:41 Laura Fitzachary

So you know, yeah, we we have a a self-care episode coming up on the on the show, which was Lucy’s absolute genius idea and it was it was great. Really, really good. How to look after yourself in those moments. So we'll, uh, that'll be out too, which would be great.

00:10:59 Lucy Jane Santos 

It's definitely important, isn't it? It's something that we all are guilty of. Not treating ourselves well enough. Sometimes I think. I mean, I've worked from home from since 2005 and I still do not have a good routine or take proper lunches or do anything that you should do. So between this episode and the self-care episode, I think I'm going to come back as a much better person.

And one of the things we want to talk about was the structure of businesses and the difference between being freelance? As in I guess being self-employed or whatever that looks like to you and operating as a limited company. How did you decide which was the best route for yourself and your businesses?

00:11:45 Karen Averby 

Yeah, well, I worked as a freelancer under the name Archangel Heritage for seven years before I made the decision to become a limited company, which I did in 2017. I've been thinking about it for quite a long time, and although I've been working under the business name of Archangel Heritage as a sole trader, there were two main reasons why I decided to take the plunge at that specific time.

I decided that Archangel Heritage would be better fit for some of the work I was doing in the commercial heritage sector and whether it's true or not, I thought it was somehow more professional in in some ways, but I'm I'm not sure, but I bring I mean, to be fair, operating as a company rather than a freelancer did open up different sorts of opportunities.

Especially with things like tendering for projects and I found that I was invited to tender for more things than I had been as a freelancer and there was a different. It was sort of a wider reach in terms of other companies and organisation who wanted to work with me as a limited company rather than as a sole trader.

And secondly, at the time, I was beginning to start, that's when I started to give talks and workshops and began to write my first, my first book, which was on Beach Huts that was published in 2017. And I didn't want that to be under the Archangel Heritage banner. And I wanted that as myself as Karen. Averby. So that was sort of what prompted my decision just to become a limited company at that time.

00:13:12 Lucy Jane Santos 

That's great. And I think it's a really interesting and important point about. Well, there's the perception of what a limited company is, so I mean. A limited company. You always feel that it's gonna be more than one person. And you know, even now, I still think that. Maybe a limited company will have offices, or maybe a reception. Or something I don't know but. You know it's it's more it's more than it's sound. It's more than it actually is in many, many cases I think isn't it.

And but it's interesting about working with big organisations and like museums and councils and things, and the opportunities that are available if you are a limited company that that aren't available as a freelancer, I think that's a a key point for many many people listening.

00:13:52 Karen Averby

No, it's very it's. It is very true and you know I I don't know if people know this so much about me, but I am the only employee in my company. It doesn't have to be, you know, several employees. I do use freelancers as well. But you know, in terms of employees, it is just me, me, myself and I, you know that I am Archangel Heritage in a sense.

00:14:11 Laura Fitzachary

Thank you so much for that, Karen. Our next question then is probably then in relation to that, which is how have you managed your finances including budgeting, tracking expenses and invoicing clients and what tools or systems have you found helpful for financial management?

00:14:28 Karen Averby 

I've always been more of a words than a numbers person, so it it was very daunting to me at first, but when I first went freelance I had a very simple system because I didn't want to make it more complicated than it was and I just used an uber spreadsheet which I used to track everything, and I had columns for date of invoice, issue, date of payment, expenses etc.

And I manually created invoices in Word but as the volume of jobs grew, I found I really needed a more efficient process to minimise the admin because I found I was spending quite a lot of time and you know trying to get it right, sorting out all you know, tax issues and things like that. So I just really needed to sort that out.

So I looked at a few accountancy systems and I opted for QuickBooks and that really helped to streamline the process and that was when I was still a freelancer and then I went limited. I kept QuickBooks but I also got an accountant and that really was, you know, the best thing that I did really in terms of that side of you know, finance things.

My spreadsheet. I still use it and I use it. It's it's now a colour coded project spreadsheet which tracks just project progress. So there's you know nothing to do with finances or anything like that in there. And now finance in fact finances are completely separate and it's so much better.

00:15:48 Lucy Jane Santos 

My next question was. I don't know, I guess this is kind of the biggie question, which is – do you have any tips about actually getting paid? So this is getting the money in your bank account, I think, rather than asking for money.

00:16:05 Karen Averby 

Good question for private clients. So when I do work such as house histories, I usually invoice for a third of the total agreed cost before I begin work.

And then I'll invoice at the end upon approval of the final draft, which I which I watermark and then when they make payment, I then provide them with the completed piece. And that's actually worked very well and I've never had any issues with payment from private clients, but companies and organisations especially some of the larger ones they can be sometimes problematic because they usually have their own payment terms and payment cycles, and when payment is late according to your terms, contacting the accounts personal department is pretty essential.

And I've found that it's best not to go in with all guns blazing, because chances are you're going to need to contact these people in the future, so it's good to create good relationships with the people who process payments. I think that's pretty necessary, actually. They're, you know, humans to. They're doing their jobs and they are usually quite sympathetic to sole traders and small businesses as well. So I think that's quite a good a good approach to make.

But also one of my top tips is to create terms and conditions to issue to clients at the outset of the job. And I attach these to my fee proposals, for example, which include specifics about payment terms, including details about late payment fees, and you might also want to include these payment terms on invoices as well and I think another point to make related to that, if you're commissioned by a third party on behalf of the client, emphasise that they are the ones responsible paying you within the agreed payment time and also include that in your terms and conditions.

Well, and of course, there's always flexibility. And if the third party is a small business or sole trader as well, they might not be able to afford to pay you until the client has paid them. So just keep communication open and agree on terms that that suit you both be flexible.

00:18:00 Lucy Jane Santos

That's all really sensible and really great actually, and I think probably something that a lot of people overlook, especially in that when you first got a new client or got a new job, or you're so excited you want it so badly, don't you that it's easy to to forget that side of things because you just want to. secure it and actually coming up with the contracts and the terms and agreements isn't always a priority right at that moment. But then obviously that does come and bites you sometimes, doesn't it?

00:18:29 Karen Averby 

It's true, it can be quite daunting to, you know, set out your terms and conditions. You know, when you're when you're, yes, when you're trying to, you've got a new client you're trying to impress them. You want to say yes.

But you have to protect yourself and and that's the way to. That's the way forward.

00:18:43 Lucy Jane Santos

I'm going to boast a little bit, but I've been working with one organisation for two years now and I invoice them and they pay the next day with out fail. Actually, once they paid the day after that, it is usually within 48 hours.

And ohh the thing, I guess the thing they're flip side of that is I treasure them so much I will do anything for them because they pay quickly. There's no problems, everything it's lovely and smooth so I guess.

Yes, I guess there's a case about, you know, it's good for the organisation to be a quick payer as well, isn't it? It's good for their reputation. It's good for all of those things too.

00:19:23 Laura Fitzachary

Because I have definitely been guilty of the overexcitement, it's happened to me and actually it uh, it flows quite beautifully into the next question I have for you, Karen. Weirdly enough, and it is that what lessons or insights have you gained from running your freelance history business for a while.

And what advice would you give to someone like little Laura starting out in a similar endeavour?

00:19:48 Karen Averby

I have quite a few, so do stop me if I keep going on and on, but I think it's really important to to share experiences with people, perhaps avoid them making the same mistakes that maybe I've made or other people have made. You know, when you're starting out and like you say you're eager, you're eager just to get on with the actual job in hand rather than all this. You know, sort of admin and and so on. So it is a real learning curve to run your own business. It's a bit of a cliche, but it really is sometimes steeper curves than others.

But I think one of the the first things to say is make yourself visible so clients aren't necessarily going to know that you're there. A good website is important, and it needn't be anything too fancy, just enough just to simply convey what you do. Some sample projects perhaps, and include contact information or a contact form in an easily spottable place. There's nothing worse than going to a website and you can't find how to get in touch with them. I would avoid putting phone numbers on websites. I think contact form or e-mail is is best because you can get calls you know by all sorts of people wanting to know different things and it's it's quite a drain on your time. I initially did have my phone number on there, but it was, you know, of course. That thing of wanting to have new clients you want to answer the phone all the time just to get these new clients, but it's going to interrupt your day far too much. I know some people do prefer to have their phone numbers on, but I've decided it's not good for me. images on your website are good as well, but not too many so that it overwhelms you. Just wanna keep it simple and I actually really need to update my own website at the moment, so sort of guilty of not taking up my own advice.

I need to update it with new project. It can sometimes take second place to other work, but it's a necessary thing to do. Always be consciously organised, which can be a bit of a learning curve again because when you're employed much of the admin is already done for you to some extent. At first I had details of all current job requirements in my head when I first started out, such as archives I needed to contact and visits or archives I needed to request documents from and how I was going to travel and when. But when you start to build up work and the jobs keep coming, it's really important to keep a record for each job.

Keep a record in a way that suits you, whether digital or on paper. So what I do is I create a new digital project folder and use a digital project sheet for job details with the checklist and then add to the folder the main folder as the job progresses. In my case it could be mainly images of archived material from archives and photos from site. Versions of reports and so on and just have that there so that you.

And just pop into it every time and I use Dropbox as well. So that wherever I can just access information? It's it's really useful. This is a practical one, but get insurance. You might think as I did when I first started out, that you don't need it, especially working at, you know, as a historian and providing historical research. But you really do.

I'm not talking from experience here, but I've heard some, you know, stories of people who weren't insured. And it's it's it's quite a sad affair, really. Especially as well, if you're undertaking site visits as well or providing research for a commercial client.

And there is a specialist insurer that ensures historians and people who work in the heritage sector and their Hiscox insurance. I probably shouldn't promote people, but they're the only ones that I know of that provide that specialist. They understand the business, they understand what we want to insuring. And a good one get in touch with people and similar things to you. Don't see them as rivals. See them as potential collaborators because there may be times that you can pass work on to them and vice versa, and there might also be projects that crop up that you could work together on as well, and the chances are they might even have advice for you.

I think in the main I've found fellow independent historians have been happy to share their experiences. I mean, let's face it, most of us are working alone and you know, we welcome the chance to talk about our working lives. And this is one we've touched on already. Be kind to yourself because we don't have superpowers. When life serves you a curveball. If it's a bereavement or an illness, don't power on through and talk to your clients. That's really important. To keep that communication open with your clients. If you can't meet your deadlines due to such thick curveballs as these, and they will understand.

And I've learned to stop and take stock before resuming work when you know things -life events happen. And I think that's so important. But keep that communication open with your clients so they know what's happening. And you know, I've never had a problem with that.

And this is a big one. I think you'll it'll resonate with both of you don't work for free it. It can be tempting to say yes to projects or pieces of work that may promise future work on the back of this, or to offer you exposure that we've all heard that word. But in reality it undervalues you. And it also undervalues your fellow historians as well.

And I think there can be a few exceptions, perhaps doing something for a charity, but often every project that you're asked to contribute to will have a budget, even charities will. But such things I think you have to have to be at your discretion. For example, I wrote a local history column for some years in a local magazine and they didn't pay me. But what they did do was place my advert for my house history services in every issue and I got a lot of work through that. As a result I got house history commissions as well as talks and workshops as well, and involvement and contributions to heritage projects. So that worked. That was a good arrangement that I had.

And I've got a final tip that I thought some a final thing to say. Learn how to manage client expectations. And again this is another quite important one. Don't promise the world and don't promise that you'll be able to find out who lived in their house in 1647. Don't promise that at the outset of the project. And if you're doing work in phases, set out each phase with exactly what you'll be doing in each phase. For commercial heritage clients, for example, I set out a scope of works in my fee proposal and I attached those terms and conditions to that as well.

00:25:45 Lucy Jane Santos 

Wow, they are all brilliant. Thank you so much. It's it's so good to have such a clear answer. It's so, so much information and so many tips there as and yes that one about the working for free, yes, it's so easy to fall into that trap, isn't it? It's so easy just to be so grateful to be asked to do something. That you end up, just almost forgetting to mention the money.

00:26:13 Karen Averby

Yes. Yeah, it is true. When you're having a conversation, someone and somebody wants you and and they want, you know them to. You want, they want you to produce work for them and you get so excited. And it's almost like you're almost embarrassed to ask them, you know, what are they going to pay you? And it's we've, I think when we're starting out, I think we've all maybe done it.

00:26:33 Lucy Jane Santos

It's a difficult question. I mean, it shouldn't be difficult. It should be quite easy just to ask, what is the budget. And once you've done it a few times it does get easier. I mean, I often get asked to do talks. I know have a little template e-mail that says what is the budget for this project. One of the things I've found that if you are finding it difficult to to write words like ‘what is your budget’ and all of those things cause you get this self-conscious. I've found using ChatGPT as a really good way of sort of. The robots have no self-conscious. They just write a lovely little paragraph about how you should get paid and what's the budget and all of those things. I find it a lot easier than actually trying to do that myself, so I've just outsourced any difficult asks to AI. That's my tip!

00:27:26 Karen Averby

I'd I'd never thought of doing that, but I think I think when you mentioned templates it's very good. Once you've got a template that works. Just keep using it. It's it's very good thing to have in your back pocket and I think ohh, that brings me on to something else. Actually, when you're a client is talking to you on the phone and they're asking you what you're what you're charging, don't reply there and then. Always say I'll, you know, I'll get back to you because you might say something and you know off the top of your head and you might not have worked out all the costs involved.

And it's no, it's always better to say - I'll get back to you and then you can e-mail them and have a think about what exactly you need to be charging?

00:28:02 Lucy Jane Santos

The next question is really something I struggle with a lot, so I'm really looking forward to your wise words on this one. Now how do you handle workload time management. And work life balance. So it's work, work and life especially you have multiple projects or clients and second part of this question have you made any adjustments to your approach over time?

00:28:27 Karen Averby

Yes, I have definitely made adjustments over time. I think we've all been guilty of pushing on through with work to the detriment of other aspects of our lives.

I've I have called all nighters with writing up research and I have cancelled social events and I have declined invitations, you know and I regret that now. Sometimes when you're on a roll with writing or researching though, it can be difficult to stop and when you've got a deadline or several deadlines approaching all you can think about is is work. I think we mentioned it earlier as well. Sometimes when new ideas pop into your head in the evening you have to just get onto your laptop and you know, do some online research or or follow that through and it's it's learning how to how to manage that. I mean I do still have weekends where I work through a work part of the weekend especially with regards to my my own research sort of writing a book or an articles that sort of thing. But setting boundaries is important. And now I do try and switch off in the evenings and weekends.

Setting an alarm is a really good practical way to do that, so I have you know alarm set for 6:00 and you know if I still need to carry on work. And you know, you sometimes do. If you're in full flow, you need to carry on. But I think setting those boundaries is really important and that's the best practical advice. And somebody gave me that advice and it was very good advice as well. And As for workloads, I've, I mean, this won't be applicable to everybody. But I established a really lovely and talented small team of researchers in various parts of the country that I can call on to undertake whole projects or elements of a project, depending on their location specialism.

00:30:03 Laura Fitzachary

But but actually I I do agree with you there, because when sometimes if a if a project comes in for me, I know I'm not the best person to answer. And I'm friends as I've worked in the museum sector for so long that I've built up this incredible network of fantastic historians who I know are just chomping at the bit so I can pass off a project to them or get them to collaborate with me on it. Or if somebody's away, I can be the person on the ground or vice versa. And I think that that having that collaborative element, we actually talked about that a lot in the networking episode, which is the collaborative nature of being an historical consultant. So I'm glad that it makes financial sense too.

00:30:43 Karen Averby

Ohh totally and I was just thinking of an example. I'm not. You know, sometimes I I'm not a medievalist, but sometimes if I'm researching a mediaeval building and there are documents that I can't readily decipher or even read very quickly. So I do have some lovely people that I can call on to do that for me because I could spend days otherwise and they can just you know wrap it off in in a in a day or whatever, and do the transcribing of of these documents as well. So it's, you know, knowing other people with specialisms that you can sort of call on to to join in with the project is it's it's been really good and that's really helped with managing my time and the time that I spend on a piece of work absolutely. 

00:31:28 Laura Fitzachary

I I've had to do a few bits with the law and my friend. He's a law and politics story and and he's great. He's. Like give me just give me the jargon. I'll translate it for you like this. Great, because I would just be hours just pouring through it. And I suppose then we just mentioned we touched upon networking. And my next question is how have you built and maintained professional relationships such as networking, collaborating with other historians or leveraging social media to expand your freelance history business?

00:31:53 Karen Averby 

Yes. So talking about social media, it has been, and still is, a really good tool for me, and it has been, you know, since I started over the, you know, right back in 2010, the best platform for me has been Twitter. I was quite dubious at first, to be honest. I'll be, uh, you know, I'll be honest about that. But my other half, who was always, absolutely aeons ahead, with such things, he convinced me to try it and once I took the plunge, I connected with so many great people on history and heritage twitter including fellow House historians, buildings, historians and four of us now actually regularly meet up, and we've become great friends. There used to be something called tweetups back in the day where you'd know each other on Twitter, and then there'll be a tweetup at a certain place and you all these historians and heritage people would gather in the in the pub or some event or something. So it was really great to make those initial connections when I didn't really know anybody else who was doing what I was doing and we've become great friends as well. But we've also passed on work to each other too and we've worked on each others projects and of course we can have a good rant together and advised each other as well. So that's been fantastic.

And I do really enjoy collaborating with other historians. It can lead to future projects. And I also collaborate with artists, buildings, archaeologists, conservators, and it's really quite varied. And I find that collaborations often come about through networking, which of course does include social media. But I have. When I first started, I was thinking gosh, you know networking, it's a bit. It's a bit of a funny one that that's not for me, but it absolutely is for everybody and the because the potential is really high, you know there's conferences, talks anywhere that other heritage professionals might be attending as well.

But I do have a bit of advice in here as well - be a bit selective. Don't stretch yourself too thin by attending every talk and every conference with the word heritage in it, but at the same time it can be fruitful to go to events that that are perhaps not specifically your area. So have a think where there might be overlaps and be creative.

And for example, I've attended archaeology conferences. I did study and work in archaeology too. In the past, which has helped. But I'm not an archaeologist. But you'll be really surprised at what meeting different people working in various different areas of heritage can lead to. And when you are networking, you're going to events don't just go with an on full of business cards and hand them out willy nilly. I think talking to people and getting to know what they do is really important and sparking up chats with people and it doesn't really even need to be about work. One of the people I met at an event has become a good friend and we've worked together as well and we actually started our conversation talking about music and we found out that we had so much in common. So you just never know. And I think social events at conferences as well can be the best way to get to know people in a more relaxed setting. Those pub conversations can lead to some great collaborations.

00:34:46 Laura Fitzachary 

Absolutely. I do. A lot of voiceover work and I do some narration as well as people really like the Irish accent for some strange reason. And so I actually, when you're talking to somebody who's producing that work, they're they're like, oh, what, what is it that you actually do? And then you tell them what you do, and then they're like, oh, actually, there's somebody who's looking for that and all of a sudden you become the voice of a particular archaeology school or field or university or you end up in campuses that's happened to me. I've ended up on university campuses and libraries and the the girl who did the voice over? Who did the voiceover? She's also historian so, and they passed her card on. Or they pass your your socials on. And that's happened to me. To me a lot. And even like the most in places that I never even thought, like in pubs, as you said in pubs at conferences. But it's just just even chatting with someone on the street has gotten me a gig before. And so absolutely top tip, I completely agree.

00:35:40 Karen Averby

Oh well. So I'm actually a very shy person, so I've had to sort of push myself. Not well, you know, not literally launch myself across the room at people.

But you know, just talk to them that they're human too. They're there and especially other people that might be standing on their own, you know, just go and chat to people. And I'm a lot more confident these days. But when I first started, because I'd always been in employment as, you know, a researcher or whatever. So having to represent myself was a really new experience for me. It was a little daunting, I have to say, but actually coming away from various events in those early days, I'd be, you know, I think the current word is like buzzing or whatever, but I would be really sort of feel really happy. And it was, you know, it was promising. It was, it was fruitful. And all of these positive words, it really was good experience. Don't be disheartened. If nothing comes up here of your networking at a particular event, one chap, for example, took my business card at a conference and he got in touch with me five years later when he set up in business and needed some research doing so. And that led to several years of work from this particular chap. So you know it they can keep you in mind, and they might just get back to you when you know in the future and and also I think it's important to keep in touch with former colleagues as well.

Some of my former colleagues have actually left employment and set up as freelancers too, so again, that collaboration has come from there as well. At the final points in answer to this question, you'll notice as your reputation and portfolio grows, that increasingly work comes through repeat work from clients.

And also from word of mouth or you'll be invited to tender for jobs and hopefully there will be periods of time where you'll not even have to think about things like advertising or anything like that because the work will just flow and that's just wonderful when that happens.

00:37:26 Lucy Jane Santos

And that actually follows really nicely into the next question. So can you tell us about any strategies you employ to market and promote your services to attract new clients and sustain your business in the long term?

00:37:38 Karen Averby

That's that's quite an interesting question and it's actually one that I have been thinking about recently because to date most of my Archangel Heritage work has been working in the commercial heritage sector with commissions relating to the planning process, assessing significance etcetera. And I've placed entries and yearbooks of the professional bodies that I belong to, that sort of thing.

And while I really enjoyed this work and it's immensely varied and it's fantastic. I want to work more with community heritage projects and build on my seaside heritage work as well as writing. So I'm thinking of ways that I'm obviously going to need to advertise in different ways in different places. So that's a question that I don't have an answer to for me and myself at the moment even. But I think in terms of marketing and advertising, yeah, place entries in the yearbooks of professional bodies that that I belong to and that's a sort of more traditional way of doing things.

I haven't yet had to place any advertisements in journals or anything like that, which is really fortunate, but I think moving in, you know, a new direction that I want to move in. I think I will have to sort of have a good, long hard think about that. But to sustain any business in the long term, you need to be adaptable and flexible and be prepared to apply work to different scenarios which I have actually been doing, but after the pandemic which gave a lot of us time to reflect both work and life wise as well. So I very much like to be steering more to work on projects that include my own research interests as well.

Although having said that, I can honestly say that nothing I've ever researched has been unenjoyable true.

00:39:15 Laura Fitzachary

That is a great way to end that question, because there's nothing as bad as being stuck in a rabbit hole and then just hating it, which is why I've always avoided the PhD. I just feel like that would happen if I just got so into it into something, and then I just like, I don't even like this anymore. I'd be so devastated. Thank you so much for such fantastic answers today, Karen and finally our last question then for you is are there any absolute don'ts or mine fields to completely avoid?

00:39:45 Karen Averby

There are a few, yes, and it's one of those things that I wish somebody had said to me when I started out. Don't undertake any work based on verbal agreements. You have to get those terms and conditions issued. Get those contracts signed. I know I've said it earlier but it's so important.

And oh, this is a good one. You are allowed to say no. Back in the early years, I had a year where I decided to say yes to everything and don't do this. Don't do that. Be selective with projects that you take on, because otherwise you'll just get into a pickle.

00:40:17 Laura Fitzachary 

For our online presence episode, we had a fantastic guest Tash and she said the worst thing they can say is yes, you've reached out. And so I just thought it was really funny cause it's the other side of that.

00:40:29 Karen Averby 

I love that that. Was that Natasha Bilson? Yeah. Yeah. When you said Tasha, I don't know anybody else in heritage called Tash so I thought it might be her.

00:40:36 Laura Fitzachary 

The one and only!

00:40:39 Karen Averby 

Only don't put all of your eggs into one basket. If a client is using you as if you're on a retainer, just be mindful that this can be a negative drain on your resources. In the early days I had a client who would drop jobs on me with almost impossible deadlines and it became our relationship became a little toxic from that because while I was able to turn around some work for them really quickly, they came to expect it, which meant that other work started to take a back seat.

And happily, that does not happen anymore because you know, I've learned from that, although I do sometimes I'm in a position to expedite work for people, but it depends on what are the commitments I have at the time. So I think there was a that was a huge lesson for me to learn. And just another couple of small things - switch off notifications for emails because it's too distracting.

And people don't generally expect an instant response, so don't think just because you've got an e-mail that you have to reply to it straight away. Don't you really don't take time and try to set a specific time of day to check emails and stick to it. And perhaps first thing. If people do need to contact you urgently, they'll call you. And if you want to leave your voicemail. And you don't want to answer you, you can. You know, there's nothing so much of an historic emergency that you'll need to be called on instantly.

And related to that set out of office emails for when you take leave or will be unavailable. What you say to them is up to you, but it's important to set boundaries as to when clients can actually contact you, because I mean, I've had clients trying to get in touch with me in the evening and at weekends and it's just a no, no, don't do it.

00:42:16 Laura Fitzachary 

Thank you. I've been guilty of writing back to an odd one on a Sunday. I'm going to absolutely stop doing that.

00:42:21 Karen Aaerby 

that that expect it.

00:42:24 Laura Fitzachary 

But of course. Thank you so much to Karen and her fantastic answers for us. At this stage in the podcast episode what we do is we pull from our mail bag, which our questions on finance that we may have gotten from our listeners or from people who we've spoken to. Now it is just two very small questions, Karen. They wouldn't be too strenuous, like I promise you that. 

But a person A - our first question was ‘I have a question about pricing. How do I work out what is fair to charge?’

00:43:09 Karen Averby 

This this can be a minefield, but if you just take a step back and think about what it is that you're doing and how to value yourself, you will, you will come up with a price. It's. It is helpful to if you can find out what other people are targeting. But people are always going to be a bit cagey about that.

And rightly so. You know, sometimes it is a private thing. But what you have to take into account is that you're covering holidays and sickness as well. No. If you're talking a daily rate, you need to include that meal to meals for when you're working away, perhaps even if the client doesn't pay for that. So all sorts.

But I think you also have to value yourself. I think when I started I was thinking well. No one's ever going to employ me if my rates are too high, but I found that when I raised my rates, actually somehow work became more just became more abundant, which was really interesting. Actually, I think it's it's interesting to also set different rates for different types clients. For example, if I've got a charity, if I'm doing work for a charity, I will charge them a different rate to say if I'm working for a private solicitors rates because the type of work I'm doing is going to be very different and attract a different value as well for different clients. So it's important that so I do have a bit of a sliding scale.

But I do have fixed rates for certain jobs, if that makes sense. You also have to account for remember to charge for accommodation and for travel as well as expenses as extras, and also if you are staying overnight, include subsistence as well. You know, don't don't ignore that.

It's all really important because it all adds up if you're if you're paying for things out of your own pocket, it does add up. So it's really important just to put everything in into your your feed proposals when you're emailing codes with those terms and conditions at the bottom, of course, so that you get paid in a timely manner.

00:44:48 Lucy Jane Santos 

The second question we had for you from our mailbag was about testimonials. So the writer said my big problem is testimonials. I've done some work for a couple of clients and they seem happy with it, but I'm scared to ask for proper feedback and also whether they would be happy to write something - a testimonial for my websites.

Any tips?

00:45:10 Karen Averby 

That's interesting because I don't have any testimonials on my website, it's it's something I've thought about doing, but I always sometimes think there is a danger of looking at testimonials and wondering if they're made up which it. I probably I probably nobody else shares this view whatsoever. I mean, I've I've had some wonderful feedback from clients.

And maybe, maybe that's a lesson for me to promote myself more with using those testimonials, but I've I've never considered it and it's really good to hear other people's views on that because I could be doing myself a disservice here. I think with commercial clients, probably it's not a good idea to approach them and ask for testimonials, but the more private clients I think might be more happy. I mean I have my you know, I have lots of emails full of lovely feedback from clients and I've never had to ask for it.

00:46:03 Lucy Jane Santos 

I mean testimonials have been abused a lot in adverts, especially in … I mean, I do a lot of work on historic quackery and stuff and they're always saying ‘Miss S from so and so says that this radioactive hair restorer -So it's my research- Radioactive hair restorer brought back a full head of hair in two weeks and you know it's not true. So there, there is a danger that testimonials aren't taken seriously. And I thought it was interesting what you're saying about having, you know, having that positive feedback form clients - the positive feedback because I mean, I went through a stage when I was feeling really unsure about my writing ability and I had a little red book and I wrote down all the Nice things that people have said about it, but like if someone wrote a nice tweet and said away like your book, I wrote it in my little red book or an Amazon review or something and it really did. I would read it so it would make me feel nice. So it's not all about showing off to your testimonial, but sometimes it's just nice to remind yourself that there are people that appreciate your work.

00:47:06 Karen Averby

I love that. I love that. I thought you're absolutely right. Actually, I was just thinking about one of the best feedbacks I had was somebody wrote - emailed me and put ‘yippee Skippy’ that was it. That was that that they loved what I'd sent them.

People need to start a little red book. I really love that idea. And it's it's about building confidence as well, isn't it? You know, for it, like the self doubts that we have sometimes things like that really help to sort of change your outlook.

00:47:37 Lucy Jane Santos 

I will if I'm confessing. I'll also say that when I got my first five star review I got on Amazon. I wrote it out in my little Red book and then in my special blue pen I drew 5 little stars next to my write out of it and it made me feel happy and I'm not sad to admit it, so we will keep that.

00:47:57 Karen Averby 

No, I think I think we have to do these things because nobody else is gonna do it for us in a way. So yeah, I love that.

00:48:05 Lucy Jane Santos

And on that therapeutic note. So we have covered a huge amount of episode and we will probably definitely revisit this topic in the near future. But whether it's having a robust payment schedule or an advance agreement in place, or just knowing you're worth, it seems that the business admin work of being a historian for hire is something to keep at the forefront of your mind. Now, before we let you go, Karen, we asked our guests one final question and it is ‘If you could choose a dream remote office where and when would it be?’

00:48:40 Karen Averby 

It would have to be overlooking the sea. Sea views are an absolute must. I absolutely love the coast.

When - is a good, really good one?

I'm almost tempted to say I want to go back to the Neolithic, but I think that's a little stretched that's a stretch too far. I'm one of those people that doesn't have a favourite period in time. I have several because I'm very indecisive, so I'm going to go for I'm going to go for Cornwall. No I'm going to go for North Devon, North Devon coast. Or Cornwall. North Devon and I'm going to be in the 1930s.

Definitely. 

00:49:24 Lucy Jane Santos 

Has to be done. I mean, certainly when I think inside overlooking, I definitely think that he's the clothes you could wear. The things you could see.

00:49:33 Karen Averby

And it would have to be a view of quite an interesting sea I love sea gazing, so the more waves, like perhaps the Atlantic Ocean, actually like. Yeah, the more waves, the more sea action the better absolutely.

00:49:49 Lucy Jane Santos

Dramatic

Lovely. Thank you. That was a brilliant answer I can. I can almost envisage you there.

I think that's great. I feel calmer already.

00:50:07

A massive, massive thank you to our wonderful guest Karen, the owner of Archangel Heritage Ltd., to get in contact with Karen and the wonderful work she does you can find her at:

Twitter: @karenaverby  or  @ArchAHeritage 

Instagram @karen.averby

And of course you can also get in touch with her via karenaverby.co.uk and archangelheritage.co.uk 

As for us you can find us on:

Twitter: @HistBizAGuide

Instagram: @historybusinessaguide

For Laura:

Twitter: & @laurafitzach

IG:   @seekthehistoric

Tik Tok: @seekthehistoric

For Lucy:

Twitter: @lucyjanesantos_ 

IG: @lucyjanesantos_   

YouTube: @lucyjanesantos_00:50:50 Laura Fitzachary 

We of course want to say a big thank you again to Karen. And a goodbye for myself and Lucy. We will see you in the next episode.

Stay safe in the meantime.